DIY Console faderbox design

[The Tasmanian]

I'm thinking of building 2 faderboxes - maybe 6-8 faders in each box.
So - 2 people can have a fader box each in their laps and perform a mix still using a passive hybrid mix situation.- or put them side by side on a surface for one person to use.
These are just line-in/line out - no mix mus duties, no groups etc. patched post EQ - pre passive & active mix busses.

What is the absolute purist passive fader design approach that one can get for such a purpose - and is it a simple task (I'm not a techy guy)
I was hoping to recycle some old neve or quadeight faders - no chips, as discrete as possible.
Any ideas?

[mylesgm]

best way? neumann or similar passive transformer balanced faders. Cost effective? no idea...

[The Tasmanian]

Thanks Myles - the neumann faders never entered my head - does the sound go through the transformers?
Does anyone know what type of faders were used on old API's and Neves and Quadeights - were they passive?
Cost affective - who knows? Mix affective it certainly would be.
I'm in a recycling mood for this
There would be plenty of old great quality fader's out there in the world - all of those great console's having upgraded to Uptown or Flying faders.

[Chinagraf]

Hey Chris, this guy often has old passive faders, in fact he has 2 bunches for sale atm. I've gotten some bits and pieces from him, seems above board. I didn't think they had transformers in them..

http://stores.ebay.com/German-Audio-Equ ... 34.c0.m322

I think the old Neve, API E-dyne faders etc were 5k log sliding resistors maybe? I was looking at them for my V72's at one point. I could be completey wrong though..

[rick]

typically older german faders are active units with 40 db of gain and transformer balanced
that would be an easy solution

typically older uk and usa faders are passive with 60-70- infinity attenuation db and can be either 600 ohms or 5 or 10 k
more modern ones are active

you can run either and make up a board... how well they work is more up to the sends and recieve amps not the faders

for instance some converters will not run into the passive faders without compromise..

i have a passive p&G fader that i sometimes run between a mic pre and limiter for tracking vocals if the singer is troublesome
it works fine so the idea is not as strange as it sounds chris

i reckon grab eight faders from some where stick cannons on them and see what you get
if it sounds dull and murky you have loading issues

[Ben M]

Personally I think you should use all the same faders Chris... for the same feel. Having an assortment of faders would be tricky for a few reasons but mainly the difference in feel would be primary.
Also if your going to use them on your lap or in a casual kinda way away from a desk/workstation.... the in's/out's would be best on a Dsub (or one terminating connector) so you don't have leads all over the place.

P&G faders were (still are) a popular choice of fader and still very easy to get.

Have you considered a couple of 8804 fader packs? I see you can get them secondhand for around $1000 these days. They would be ready to roll for your purpose.

[Junction]

Chris, if you have dedicated line outputs for a single submix fader panel, then you could do a passive mix, as long as the line output is relatively low impedance 40 ohms or similar, you should be able to use any value of fader say 600 ohms or 10k ohms and anything in between for a passive mix. If the line output is balanced, you can simply take the + output and mix that, dont connect the - output.

If you intend to share a line output feeding another submix fader panel or some other device, then you will need to do an active mix, i.e. it will need to go into a high impedance buffer amp first before mixing, as a passive mix will cause crosstalk between channels you are mixing, back into the split to the other submix fader panel ... hard to explain, does that make sense?

I have been thinking of another alternative, coz it may be easier than building a panel and by using a B#@*ringer bcf2000 midi fader panel connected to my workstation and setup a seperate mix there, i.e. use the midi panel to remote control the mix to a spare couple of outputs on my sound card. Has anyone tried these midi fader panels before?

Cheers
Michael

[Alistair]

I've got and use a be!@#$%^& fader panel- the BCF2000 or whatever it is.

It's great for a few reasons, and crappy for a few others.

Easy to use, quick setup, automated and recallable! Super cheap, I think I paid $80 2nd hand or something like that.

The automation is cheap and makes the faders hard to move very slowly- a pain in the arse for subtle movements. The automation motors are also really loud.
Perhaps the biggest pain is that due to its digital nature controlling the faders in the DAW, if you're running into outboard and then summing like me and a lot of others, you end up controlling the volume before it hits the compressors etc, which is pretty different from controlling after.

If it's a track I know I'll have to tweak a lot I'll often print the tracks back in with outboard on them, in which case it works great, but a lot of the time I don't want to do that so the be!@#$%^& is a bit of a pain. You end up riding the volume on some of the tracks with compressor output knobs, which sucks (I appreciate the Distressor and 1176 big knobs though!)

[mylesgm]

typically older german faders are active units with 40 db of gain and transformer balanced
that would be an easy solution

typically older uk and usa faders are passive with 60-70- infinity attenuation db and can be either 600 ohms or 5 or 10 k
more modern ones are active

i reckon grab eight faders from some where stick cannons on them and see what you get
if it sounds dull and murky you have loading issues

Both of the auctions Chinagraf mention are passive units and there are a few other modules as well that are passive from that era. I also have a largish collection of P&G faders possibly 600ohm (haven't looked) which should work as long as the output from your DA is a low impedance output (it probably is). Like Rick says, probably best to simply hook up a a few faders and check what they sound like.

M

[Ben M]

About 10 years ago I had one of those CM labs motormix controller thingy's.
But as Alistair said above about the be!@#$%^&... you end up fighting with the fader motor. They are horrible, slow and lousy for subtle moves. But may be doable if your not using the automation in your DAW. But I'm sure you do.
Anyway sounds like you want to pass audio rather than use a controller.

[mylesgm]

yep had a be!@#$%^& encoder box. Used it, hated it, sold it. Never bothered with that idea again.

[Junction]

... sorry Chris didnt mean to hijack ur thread with the B'ringer idea!

I was thinking of using the B'ringer as a muso headphone mix, where they control it, not using automation, and I assume then the whole fighting the motorized fader problem and any latency would not be an issue.

[The Tasmanian]

The faders I need would be post outboard (vintage) EQ's, and reverb or delay line level returm's - never straight from a D to A.
Like eg: having lead vocal and main guitars, and reverb at your fingertips in a mix.
So it is possible with old faders then?

[mylesgm]

Should be but you'll want balanced faders probably and you'll also want to keep cable runs short. No mixing in the garden...

[The Tasmanian]

Shit - the garden was the whole point

[Ben M]

Shit - the garden was the whole point

Why didn't you say?.....In that case – grab an long tin flower pot, cut some slits for faders, chuck in some old faders, add a multicore down to the garden with speakers.....then pour cocktails (with those little umbrella's and a slice of pineapple and a cherry of course).

[rick]

there is this neato thing with faders in it already .. people use to use them a lot i think they called it a mixing console
you have a couple right ...?

[The Tasmanian]

Studio A - Tasmania

[Hookemeister]

I''ve got some Neve P&G's with Neve fader plates from an old 2016 console as well as some P&G's on fader plates from an old Opera House console from the '70s which I keep thinking I'll use for a similar project. If I remember correctly they are 5k faders - audio taper. I'll dig them out next week and let you know what I've got and confirm the specs.

Greg Hooke

[The Tasmanian]

Rick - to fill you in more
Ive been obsessing for years about mix busess - how they shrink the sound, image, power etc.
Wondering why some old consoles so so much more open larger than life sound.
Rebuilt both the Neve and Quadeight mix buses to be discrete, have separate power sources and the difference was astonishing both times.
Ive spent a lot of time on many different consoles.......wondering
Fast forward:
In Tasmania I'm getting astonishing results using a passive mix bus and a a whole bunch of killer EQ's (10x ch Electrodyne, Mci's,Amtec,Chandlers,lots of comps etc)

The stereo passive mix bus sounds so much larger than life than any console I have spent time with. (The closest is an old Neve)
Having no pan's - (only the electrodyne's have faders). gives me almost straight wire into whatever 2 x pre's I want to flavor the 2mix.

About to add 10 SSL EQ's to the picture - would like to have fader's for some of these and be able to patch fader's after comps, reverb returns etc.

I am on the path for a futuristic flexible hybrid set-up that gives me better sonic results than mixing through a console with one sound. (I'm nearly there)
Having a custom mix bus that I can change the sound/speed of per project is awesome (changing the stereo 2 bus preamp flavor)).
Its starting to feel like a console with many different flavors, incorporating really modern EQ's & comps with lots of vintage stuff to blend together.
So faders that can be patched on the patchbay across any EQ/comp - would be awesome to put on whatever needs some fader action.

I know it sounds like I'm building a console in reverse, that's not my intention.
My intention is to have the elements I like about consoles, without having one.
Everything is in roadcases so that the whole studio can move around to record and mix anywhere in the van.

But the sound is everything - the higher quality passive fader is the only way to go.
I wont touch any new Neve or anything fader box - then I may as well have a desk.
My obsession continues
It almost feels like I can paint with sound with this setup - so wonderfully flexible sonically.

You guys in mastering have this - many different flavors of equipment carefully patched together to get certain sonic results - its about how they interact - never would you consider only going through 1 brand of flavor/gear.
This is what I am doing for mixing - only the flavors I want on certain things - no "overall" console sound.
Now who made the greatest quaility faders back then.....

[The Tasmanian]

Thanks Greg and Myles - I knew there would be boxes of old good faders around.
Let me know what you dig up.
The ones on my electrodynes are so amazingly built - still incredibly smooth after 40 years : Duncan Electronics/Bystron 600ohm
I would like to find more of these (not likely).
What faders did the Neves use in the early/mid 70's?

[Hookemeister]

Hi Chris

All the Neve 80 Series (8016, 8026 etc) consoles from the 70's used Penny & Giles faders, 5k audio taper (log).
They also had a PFL switch (Pre Fade Listen) at the lower end of the fader throw... just pull on the fader and you would hear what was on that channel.

These faders were the plug & play variety utilising a 15 pin connector on the back of the fader. Spill coffee down a fader... no problem, undo 2 screws, lift the fader out, unplug it, plug in the replacement fader and your back in business.
You've gotta love Rupert Neve... he built military spec consoles.

Anyhow I'll get them out of storage later this week and let you know the actual P&G part number.
I vaguely recall they were a 1520.

Talk later.

Greg

[rob]

Get some 5 to 10 k good quality faders that you like the feel of and I'll draw you a picture.

To clarify, you want to go multiple channels of DAW output : processing or not on each channel : passive fader : passive mixer : makeup gain stereo amp : final mix

Yeah?

You can do all this, balanced and passive. Only trade off is that you'll need a bit more gain dialled up on the makeup gain amps.
Otherwise ..... Perfect

[The Tasmanian]

Rob - no stereo mix
just line in (from EQ's and comps) to line out - going into your fantastic sounding passive mix bus.

[rick]

yeah understood the whole mix em up thing chris
its the way to go if your have that kind of mind ( i do )

i reckon i sold or gave a whole box of those quad eight / electrodyne / duncan faders from the blue starswars board
to jim blackfoot years ago , i bet like everybody else he has them in a box somewhere waiting for him to build his own custom console
this is a well worn path chris the problem is in the actually doing of it ( getting it done )
thats why we all have a box of faders somewhere

i gave Nick franklin a box of active never faders with enough parts to make a neve desk a year ago
lets see if he still has his hair by the time he gives them to somebody else


btw i have a very cool old- restored pultec 3 unit high summing stereo console ( well ...its 7 into two but could be expanded into whatever by this same method )

i am thinking i dont need it in the new setup ( i bought a ssl x desk which is not vintage or coloured but astoundingly quiet which is more what i need)
not that the pultec is noisy its not
anybody watching this thread and thinking along the summing mixer line ...but pultec .. and tube !
drop me a bell i just might sell it cheap enough to make sense to a forum member

[The Tasmanian]

PMed Rick

[The Tasmanian]

I think I found my fader box
http://www.solid-state-logic.com/news/a ... ID=348&T=M.
If I got 2 of these it would give me 8 auxes and 16 mono+ 8 stereo faders.
Great for parallel processing, vocal fx sends and I can still use my proharmonic passive mix bus with the mic pre of my choice for make-up gain/flavour.
## And I can use the 2 stereo mix buses as another 2 pairs of aux's - giving me 12 auxes!!!!!
Who needs a console!
SSL are really on to it

[rick]

as i said i have the xdesk part
doesnt look like much but clearly ssl hired somebody who made records and had an idea of whats needed even if nobody else in the market has provided it

its a great system , i cannot believe people bitch about the price
its not competing with beringer or anybody really .. and thats the point i guess

if i didnt have a shed full of euphonix consoles i would build on this platform i reckon
go for it chris

[DwaneHollands]

I think I found my fader box
http://www.solid-state-logic.com/news/a ... ID=348&T=M.
If I got 2 of these it would give me 8 auxes

Woah - just seen all those crazy emoticons on the left with the new site layout. Gave me a fright the first time I've posted with the new layout! lol

OK, on to more serious matters. haha.

Hey Chris I've been looking at those SSL X-Desk and X-Panda systems for waaayyy down the track as a mini console. I'm just learning about consoles, so excuse my ignorance.

I can't seem to find the 4 Aux's in the X-Panda or the X-Desk that you are talking about. Again, you probably know more about these things than I do. I can only see 2 FX sends which I believe are only mono sends. I understand that the ALT inputs are routed to the CUE buss, which can then be summed to the MIX buss in the master section.

I too thought that this system was over-rated, but now I'm beginning to get it and see the value in it! Particularily when you start comparing it against larger format consoles, the modular expandability of this system is great, since you get it cheap (comparitively) and then expand as you get more cash...haha. I know Chris Lord-Alge was pretty chuffed with the X-Desk and said every home studio should have one.

[Ben M]

I can't seem to find the 4 Aux's in the X-Panda or the X-Desk that you are talking about. Again, you probably know more about these things than I do. I can only see 2 FX sends which I believe are only mono sends. I understand that the ALT inputs are routed to the CUE buss, which can then be summed to the MIX buss in the master section.

Hi Dwane... Chris is talkin 2 X-panda's which would equal 8 aux's (4 on each). Then seeing he won't be using the 2 busses....there's another 4 out's.
The Cue to mix is only on the X-desk me thinks. If you use x-panda in conjunction with an x-desk it's all good, but you lose the 4 stereo channels but pick up the other 8 alt's with the cue to mix function (just not on fader..on pots)...however you also lose that cue function as aux's on the x-desk. Oh shit I'm confusing myself now.
Let's see.... 2 xpanda's will give you 16 mono and 8 stereo channels.
Using 1 x-desk and 1 x-panda will give you 16 mono and 4 stereo channels, 8 alt inputs on pots through the cue to mix plus some other things like monitor section, etc.
Clear as mud.
But like you said...grow as you need them.