Is high end audio gear really necessary these days?

[audioio]

Take Joan Jett's 'I Love Rock n Roll'. That tune sounds nasty in terms of audio quality. It wouldn't surprise me if it were recorded in a bedroom...

Nope.

http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_classic_tracks_joan/

[Chinagraf]

What's that saying about the 3 most important things in a recording - The song, the song, and the song.
Still, I'm gonna use all my good gear regardless of what it's going to end up on. Getting there is half the journey, and it makes getting there a lot more fun. I would still work on a wax cylinder if I had to though.
I do get some stuff played to me by younger crew and think, nice idea, shame it's recorded so badly, but then maybe that's my point of focus, maybe accountants don't care? I think they secretly do though...

[Kurt]

Things can be recorded badly in million dollar studios too. If it sounds bad, chances are it's technique more than equipment.

I do get some stuff played to me by younger crew and think, nice idea, shame it's recorded so badly, but then maybe that's my point of focus, maybe accountants don't care? I think they secretly do though...

[Chinagraf]

Absolutley, but I think you'll agree that all things being even, a vocal recorded on a good pre with an 87 sounds better than a Samson usb mic, no?

[Kurt]

Very likely... Though I've never heard a Samson USB mic to make that comparison fairly.

Absolutley, but I think you'll agree that all things being even, a vocal recorded on a good pre with an 87 sounds better than a Samson usb mic, no?

[ChrisW]

I've had this discussion many times about drums on drum fora.
So the bottom line is, yes great records can be made on anything. Great records tend to be great because of the songs and performances.
I guess this is an audio forum and we tend to talk about audio.
Back to drums.....
Steve Gadd would sound incredible on a $50 drum kit. No doubt in my mind.
In the end, most professionals want to push the limits of 'quality' as far as they can. It's one part professional pride, and one part inspiration. To explain, you don't really want to be battling audio gremlins or poor sound (in your subjective opinion) when what you really want to be doing is concentrating on creativity. The very best gear can also be inspirational.
I personally enjoy playing and am more inspired by playing hand built, high quality drums. I can almost achieve the same sound with a factory made Pearl or Tama. No one listening to the record would know the difference.
But this is what I do, this is my life, so if I can afford it, I would much rather use the best - in my subjective opinion - than use 'the rest'.
So to conclude.......
It is all rather subjective.
You wont perhaps achieve a better snare sound by using a $10,000 vintage Neumann instead of a Shure 57.
I wont make better records by using my Q8 pre's instead of a the pre's that come with my soundcard.
But if any of these tools make you want to spend more time working on your music, and help you enjoy your music, that's more than enough reason to own and use them IMO.

[Chris H]

It's a given that it's all about the song / performance etc but in the heirachy of things, good gear will always be an important factor.With Audiogate/DSD already in the marketplace, It's also a possibility that a market will grow for high quality digital playback. Though I can't find it on his web page, I thought i saw DSD as a download option for Gotye's album.
Google DSD download and you will see guite a few options.

[jkhuri44]

^ high bandwidth media will take off as soon as our country gets its internet out of the ice age.

[Senad]

I just repaired a $12,500 stereo power amp. It is considered "high end". I think it sounds like crap! Where to from here?

HAHAHAHAHAHA

[Kurt]

The rest of the world is sitting around waiting for Australia to lead the way eh?
It hasn't taken off anywhere.

^ high bandwidth media will take off as soon as our country gets its internet out of the ice age.

[jkhuri44]

what about parts of the US? very cheap., unlimited lightening fast cable....developed europe...etc? common ADSL2...is ok for downloads, uploads suck tho.

[Kurt]

I meant high definition downloads haven't taken off, despite the technology having been around for quite some time in many places.

what about parts of the US? very cheap., unlimited lightening fast cable....developed europe...etc? common ADSL2...is ok for downloads, uploads suck tho.

[rob]

my earlier, rather glib comment about the " hi-fi " power amp was really about examining the definition of high-end.

From my side of the bench, I reckon I can lump audio gear into three catagories. Not the two that might be obvious, ie high end and low end.
Here we go:
bad low fi - poor measuable technical performance and no subjectively pleasing sonic atributes
good low fi - poor measurable technical performance but with subjectively pleasing or useful sonic atributes
hi fi - good technical performance and no sonic attributes

ok, these are broad brush strokes, but they paint a picture.
Take the $13,500 hi-fi power amp on the shelf in my workshop. Audiofool guys wet themselves over these and those with the disposable cash buy them. But, throw any standard test at it and if was hiding inside a cardboard box and you couldn't see the shiny brass plating and gold volume knob and giant tubes but simply measured it's performance ... dampening factor - ho hum, frequency response - down 2dB at 20kHz, max output 22 watts at 5% THD and 1% THD at only 2 watts; well you couldn't be too impressed. So why are folks impressed besides its big looks and impressive descriptions by the maker and retailers. Well, it is probably largely because all that distortion is almost pure 2nd harmonic. And as any musician knows, adding an octave up on every note always fattens things out and sounds nice. This is good low-fi.
Lots of the desirable high end gear is really just good low fi. Take a lot of the early Quad Eight stuff. Its sounds good, not in every situation, but in many it is just the ticket. Look at its distortion character, almost pure 2nd and a bit of 3rd harmonic, an octave and a fifth - cool. But not much ugly 5th and 7th harmonics. Also transformers, hot level low frequencies get some additional harmonics, but this effect falls off rapidly above 100Hz or so. Thus kiks and low bass notes get some extra "warmth" but not extra "edginess" as this sort of distortion would be percieved if applied to higher mid and high frequencies.
Take the industry standard 1176. Lots of almost pure 3rd harmonic. A musical fifth.
A U87 - you ever measured the performance of the head amplifier in one of these? I have. Its ok, but really isn't that great. There are many more modern mics that have better technical performance. More good low fi

Where I think we want good hi fi, what I'd like to see called high end is in the converter, monitoring control and speakers. This is what needs to be seamless, transparent and not have a "sound". Everything else, mics, preamps, eq amd processors are just tools to get the job done. The objective of the job sits inside your head, hopefully inspired by the music you are working with and if you know your tools well enough you'll pick the right one for the task. If you want to get into the high end, direct your energy and money into the gear and spaces that allow you hear accurately what you are doing.

[Simon B]

this was posted on here years ago.

Now its at 42 MILLION views an explains the reason no

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Us-TVg40ExM

a good song will always be a good song.

although it sounds like it was mixed in a hi end studio, (I may be wrong it happened once.) this is recorded all over the world using few bits of equipment.

the big appeal seems to be the feeling an emotion captured

[The Tasmanian]

Thanks Rob for such a good lesson in putting it in MUSICAL terms - after all that is the medium

[ChrisW]

I agree.
Perfect audio is often less appealing than the imperfect.
This is why many softsynths have failed to emulate real hardware.
It's all just too clean and predictable.

Having said that, I absolutely don't discount the music consumer becoming obsessed with sound quality again at any point in the future. It's all in the marketing.
If Apple released a new, super high-end but affordable audio product, and marketed it as an mp3 killer, I think mp3's would be dead in the water. As things stand they aren't going to kill the goose that laid the golden egg however.
In the meantime, it makes sense to work to the best quality benchmarks you can, 1) for personal satisfaction and 2) for the inevitable day mp3's are obsoleted.

[Chris H]

I agree.
Perfect audio is often less appealing than the imperfect.
This is why many softsynths have failed to emulate real hardware.
It's all just too clean and predictable.

Having said that, I absolutely don't discount the music consumer becoming obsessed with sound quality again at any point in the future. It's all in the marketing.
If Apple released a new, super high-end but affordable audio product, and marketed it as an mp3 killer, I think mp3's would be dead in the water. As things stand they aren't going to kill the goose that laid the golden egg however.
In the meantime, it makes sense to work to the best quality benchmarks you can, 1) for personal satisfaction and 2) for the inevitable day mp3's are obsoleted.

The last few posts have been great, especially Robs.
And Chris W, the marketing aspect to the possibility of high quality audio being on Apples agenda is something i would love to see happen. It just happens that a friend who was in a band with me in the 80's is pretty high up in Apples research team in the US. Might be worth having another all things audio chat with him and point him to this thread. You never know, It might just help the cause in some small way?

[ChrisW]

Hmm, if you have a friend high up in Apple's US research team, you must be on the Forbes list of most powerful people in Australia. Wedged between Gina R and Clive P I would guess?

[jkhuri44]

^ and still has time to post on TR...godly

[Chris H]

Hmm, if you have a friend high up in Apple's US research team, you must be on the Forbes list of most powerful people in Australia. Wedged between Gina R and Clive P I would guess?

It's hard to tell over the net, and it makes me a bit uncomfortable saying this but your post sorta makes me feel you're taking the piss outa me...... If you are good luck to you, but I know I'm a small fish in a small pond and I'm not trying to big note myself, and I also know well, who I speak of and it doesn't make me any one I am not, especially nothing like you are suggesting. This is a nice place and i always feel comfortable posting whats on my mind.

[Chris H]

Ha! The Irony does not escape me....What a Wonderful World!
The world is full of surprises!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5rwYnj2 ... ure=relmfu


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcTeRb7h ... ure=relmfu

[jkhuri44]

F@#$ing love TED...so good that all those talks are free, and there's soooo many of em.

[Sammas]

Hmm, if you have a friend high up in Apple's US research team, you must be on the Forbes list of most powerful people in Australia. Wedged between Gina R and Clive P I would guess?

I know an American chap that used to work for Google. He made his millions, quit and moved to Australia with his wife. He was semi-retired before he was 40. He used to work at a small solar firm near Balmain to fend off the boredom.

From what he told me about the way google operated as a company, it wouldn't surprise me if Chris H knew someone neck deep in research at Apple. Apple probably have 100 teams in R&D, each with dozens and dozens of members creating the next latest and greatest gadgets. Not only that, they would probably be working within a complete Apple eco-system that includes an employee shopping centre, getting paid salaries that include catered 5-star meals in Apple employee food courts and in-house day care for the kids... and that is before a team develops something of worth, then they get large stock payouts in apple shares or some megabuck bonuses (read: Millions of dollars). IT companies, out of every industry seem to realise that happy, well fed, and justly rewarded people work harder!

Its a very different business to most. Its success is based on its R&D which is probably looking years ahead of what it stocked on the shelf at Apple stores.

You guys do know there is a millionaire mining magnate on this forum already, right? His story is pretty damn rivoting as well!

[Alistair]

Magnet or Magnate? Both relate to mining I think!

[Sammas]

Magnet or Magnate? Both relate to mining I think!

Whoops! Corrected.

[Manning]

Speaking as a high-end audio connoisseur, Rob's analysis above can be dismissed as ignorant nonsense, because he didn't use $5000 oxygen-free copper cables, and so obviously he corrupted the otherwise perfect sound of that $13,500 preamp.


(Please tell me that you know this post is utter nonsense...)

[jkhuri44]

I just bought a snake oil filter. Sorry manning, you didnt make the cut.

[ChrisW]

It's hard to tell over the net, and it makes me a bit uncomfortable saying this but your post sorta makes me feel you're taking the piss outa me......

Not at all. I'm envious that you have an interesting and accomplished friend.
I use and greatly admire many Apple products. I think the design aspect (both the hardware and the software) is genius.
I am making a little joke about the way many young people worship Apple as if it's a religion, but I do think Apple have tremendous power to shape opinion, and to be a member of the design team would mean your friend would have tremendous power to shape our futures.
It's a shame the internet has become a place where people almost by default assume they're being attacked.

[ChrisW]

You guys do know there is a millionaire mining magnate on this forum already, right? His story is pretty damn rivoting as well!

No, I didn't know.

[Chinagraf]

Yeah, I always figured maybe that was him but didn't want to ask. That is a great story. Maybe he will tell us about it some time..